Buying a firearm for someone as gift vs. straw purchase

Discussion in 'Conceal & Open Carry & 2nd Amendment' started by Cutlass327, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. Cutlass327

    Cutlass327 Well-Known Member

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    So how is the law considering that? If I was to buy a firearm for someone, as a gift, are there any issues? I know on the 4473 there is a question about "I am the buyer of this firearm", and yes, I am the buyer, but not the end owner. I know the person I'm buying for is not a felon or mental case, but why would they put that on there other than to deter people from gifting firearms?
     
  2. borgranta

    borgranta New Member

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    I did some reading and as long as you are using your own money than you are legally the buyer. If someone were to give you the money and tell you to buy the gun for them than you would not legally be the buyer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012

  3. NormH3

    NormH3 Banned

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    May not be a bad idea to do a transfer at an FFL after you gift. Yes it will cost you a few bucks, but it removes any doubt.
     
  4. zekest

    zekest Active Member

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    This is subject to your local/state laws. In Oregon you can give a person WHO CAN LEGALLY OWN A FIREARM a firearm. If you have reasonable knowledge that the person you are giving that firearm to can own it, it is fine.
     
  5. zekest

    zekest Active Member

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    If you go through the extra expense and trouble of tansferring the firearm through an FFL holder, with legal paperwork, it kinda shows that you, in fact, have some doubt. You are, in fact, putting the responsibility on the part of the FFL holder to do a background check.
     
  6. NormH3

    NormH3 Banned

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    I think you misconstrued my comment. I'm sure he knows his friend's background and as a responsible gun owner would not do anything illegal. The doubt I was refering to would be from any authority that might question the gift. I realize some people do not approve of paper trails, but it is a consideration.
     
  7. Cutlass327

    Cutlass327 Well-Known Member

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    I found after posting this the same thing zekest said, it was explained in a wiki page.

    That us a good point though about CYA with the ffl, if it is a friend it something. I would think they would be less likely to have issues though if it is an immediate family member, which is who I am going to gift it to...
     
  8. David

    David Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Its actually illegal to buy a firearm and give it to someone else as a gift or otherwise, but its not enforceable. What proof is there that you own whatever gun is on your side or in your house? There's no legal registry for gun ownership, or shouldn't be.

    My fiancee is the owner of all the Bersas in the house, but I call them mine. I carry one. I go to Louisiana with it on my side. Who's to say who the legal owner is or isn't?
     
  9. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    No its not… Never seen it in the laws, maybe it is in your state, but its not a federal law, nor is is illegal in my state (AZ).

    It is illegal only on two counts,
    A) if you know they are going to commit a crime with said firearm
    B) if they cannot otherwise own a firearm (Prohibited Possessor)

    Thats how I got my Glock, when I was 18, me and my mom went to Cabelas, she bought it, handed it to me, I wore it home. 100% legal.
     
  10. David

    David Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes, it is. Read it for yourself:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
     
  11. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    All I read was a bunch of laws that govern what FFL license holders can and cant do, who needs a liscence, and this... (Which backs up what I was saying... )
    "(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
    (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
    (2) is a fugitive from justice;
    (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
    (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
    (5) who, being an alien—
    (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
    (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
    (6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
    (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
    (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
    (B)
    (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
    (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
    (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
    This subsection shall not apply with respect to the sale or disposition of a firearm or ammunition to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector who pursuant to subsection (b) ofsection 925 of this chapter is not precluded from dealing in firearms or ammunition, or to a person who has been granted relief from disabilities pursuant to subsection (c) ofsection 925 of this chapter."

    None of this applies to gifting a firearm to someone who is not a prohibited possessor, or is not going to commit a crime.

    If you believe that a section in here does make said action illegal, then please point it out.

    Here is an article from the NSSF about the issue:
    "Though there’s no federal law that prohibits a gift of a firearm to a relative or friend that lives in your home state"

    http://www.nssfblog.com/giving-a-firearm-as-a-gift-some-reminders-from-nssf/
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  12. David

    David Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    If your statement is true, then I am relieved because all the many Bersas I own and the one I carry were purchased by my fiancee, because she has a Texas license and mine is Louisiana. Seriously, very relieved. Those guns really do mean a lot to me.
     
  13. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    You are talking about CCW licenses correct? The law you cited has nothing to do with CCW licenses.

    I am not a lawyer and cannot give legal advice, but did stay at a holiday inn express (and am currently studying law). I would stand by what the NSSF has stated.

    I would look up your state law regarding private sales and gifting a firearm.
     
  14. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 RETIRED MODERATOR Lifetime Supporter

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    Any shadow of doubt regarding gifting / straw purchase can be resolved

    by reading the gun laws of your state ...period !


    In Pennsylvania...I can buy and gift the firearm to someone in my immediate family only...if

    I were to buy for a friend who then used said firearm in a crime, I would face legal ramifications.

    I know this because I did the research !
     
  15. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    The underlined points are critical. Never take some persons word on the internet without checking up on it yourself.

    That said, the only stipulation for gifting a firearm to a person in AZ (besides the usual prohibited possessor or criminal intent) is that you need written parental permission to gift a firearm to a minor.
    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03109.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS
     
  16. David

    David Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    No.............
     
  17. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    What texas and louisiana licenses you talking about???
     
  18. David

    David Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I see what happened. My apologies; I was misleading, unintentionally. My fiancee has a Texas Drivers License and I have both a Louisiana Drivers License and Concealed Handgun Permit.

    I'm going to PM you in a few and show you where I got that info. I actually argued YOUR point, that gifting a firearm is NOT illegal. Boy, did I make their blood boil. Give me a few minutes....
     
  19. blackwolffcf

    blackwolffcf Well-Known Member

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    Got it, laws are very confusing and are up for interpretation. The most important thing is not what they think, or what you think, but how the attorney general interprets it.

    Send a request for clarification of the law and see what you get back.
     
  20. borgranta

    borgranta New Member

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    I can sell sell as many private sales as I want as long as it is a hobby and not my sole means of financial support. One ffl told me that the main difference between selling for a hobby and selling as a business is intent since an ffl dealer's intent is to make a profit but the unlicensed person's intent is to not lose too much money from selling it versus how much they paid when they first bought it.
    (a)It shall be unlawful—
    (1)for any person—(A)except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms,